I’m with you, but I think this is why it’s still surprisingly controversial: what the older generations got wrong, like spanking, was so relatively small compared to what newer parents get wrong (screens, lack of free play) that the kids raised the old way are still so clearly better off psychologically than many kids raised by nonspankers today. Even though it’s the social media and over parenting that’s ruining kids today (and the adderall), not the lack of spanking. But that’s confusing and hard for some to separate out, so they just think “kids these days, should’ve had a good beating”…
I still, in my rapidly-tarnishing golden years, have occasional nightmares of my father beating me. And he was well within the normal range of the times.
I slapped my kid's hand once. Just once, out of frustration. Still bothers me. I'm livng proof abuse need not be passed down. I still managed just fine to set limits; to say "no" when necessary. Happy to say it worked out beautifully.
Great points on tech and drugs as so much more important. Another variable contributing to the decline is diet and toxic foods. Ballooning obesity is the visible manifestation, but these things must be impacting the developing mind as well.
This is a very good point. Spanking is bad, but clearly children today are even more dysfunctional and weak than Millennials were. Astoundingly rude too.
I’ve literally never heard anyone who spanks their kids use a single reason you quoted. Spanking isn’t lashing out or violence and isn’t done to hurt/harm. That’s called abuse.
My kids are grown - 26-36 in ages now. We rarely spanked any of them but we did, judiciously, not in anger, when called for. When they were old enough, consequences were enough.
My parent used “psychology” for me - “we are so disappointed...” and that left a lot of crap for me to sort through later. Much better for me to have been spanked.
Me and my wife only spank for rebellion. And we never do it out of anger. If we have to, we take a moment to collect ourselves. We start with explaining why they are getting spanked, and then spank, then tell them we love them and pray for them. After about 3 yr old my kids haven't really needed spanking. The goal is not to break their spirit but train out rebellion. It is not to instill fear (I have never heard this before) but rather should be done with love and the child should know this. But that is just me.
Also your explanation of "sparing the rod" was not all that convincing to me. The rod and staff were used to both comfort and protect. To guide and to punish. Comfort them in gentleness and coaching, but also protecting them from the enemy, which can often be themselves and their own rebellion. I will admit I am no Hebrew expert, but have looked into those when I became a parent.
Thank you for making this post. As someone who was abused (much worse than spanking) as a child, I indeed grew up fearing any sort of risk in life, and you were right on the nose about the negative effects it had on my ability to communicate with people as well - this caused huge problems for me in my relationships (mostly with women, as the abuse came from my mother) and left me feeling misunderstood and unable to effectively express myself for most of my life.
I'm nearly 40 now, and while most of it is in the past (due to years of working on myself and being fortunate enough to find/afford good therapy), I grew up never wanting a kid of my own, because I feared that I might carry the same cycle on that my mother did with me. Everything else has stabilized in life - objectively good career, physical health, etc., but every now and then I still wonder about raising a kid.
I was spanked and I have to say, 25% of this article is complete gobbledygook based on my experience. May be true for most kids, especially daughters, but i never feared being spanked for a “mistake”, because i never was spanked for a “mistake”. Spanking would occur when the child did something egregiously wrong, that even they knew was wrong.
Now i do disagree with spanking, because I don’t think it works particularly well. Personally it didn’t deter me from anything. But calling it trauma or fear inducing is just cringe to me, as you don’t do it to a kid that can’t handle it mentally.
I read you nearly daily and appreciate much good advice. Thank you, Cerno. 🙏
But, on this one I disagree. I read Positive Discipline and questioned the use of the rod for years, leaning towards your same understanding: "The rod is a what a shepherd uses to guide his flock."
But, somehow I found that I missed this verse:
"Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you strike him with a rod, he will not die." (Prov 23:13)
Of course, discipline (correction) should not be done in anger, but in love and understanding.
"Fathers and mothers, I tell you plainly, if you never punish your children when they are in fault, you are doing them a grievous wrong. I warn you, this is the rock on which the saints of God, in every age, have only too frequently made shipwreck." - Ryle, J.C.. The Duties of Parents (p. 31). Kindle Edition. [Ryle's book from 1888 is the best book on parenting I've ever read and it's less than 50 pages.]
Just want to thank you for now enabling comments for free subscribers. I'd tried on earlier posts and got that mean pop-up that made me feel sad. (FYI I do think every Substacker has the right to control access and commenting as they choose.)
I was spanked and spanked my first child. It made everything worse. Learned peaceful parenting with second child. The guilt I still feel for not learning sooner still eats at me.
I’m 100% with you, Mike, and neither of my children turned out to be spoiled or criminal, or anything else. They turned out great. The only time I can remember giving them a serious spanking was when they made it, as very small toddlers, to the road in front of the house. It scared me to death, and my own fear spurred the spanking. I did hope it would make an impression that would prevent future danger, but I think, to this day, I could have done something more effective without physically hitting my children. I agree--can’t for the life of me figure out why this is even controversial.
Best thing we can do for our kids is earn their trust, and how do you earn the trust of someone you’re hitting, for whatever reason?
Good discipline is entirely compatible with a no spanking policy.
Excellent, Mike. One of your best - and I've read you for a long time. My borderline father (evangelical Christian) routinely hit me but my siblings fared worse. He never apologized after his rages. My brothers look at it as some type of male initiation and love the guy. I've never forgotten and though we've had our adult conversations about the past, I still don't trust him, even now.
Beat a child = lose the child, especially men dominating little girls.
"The word rod indicates a thin stick or switch that can inflict a small amount of physical pain with no lasting physical injury. It should go without saying that a child should never be bruised, injured, or cut by a physical corrective measure. The Bible warns that parents should never abuse their power and authority over their children (Ephesians 6:4; Colossians 3:21). Discipline, physical or otherwise, should not be abusive, unfair, or administered in anger. Discipline should be done in love, with purpose, and under control."
Depends on the child, the situation, and whether in anger (lashing out) or not. A young child continually putting a plastic bag on his head will associate doing so with a hard smack - less risk of repeating the endeavor.
Am 100% against lashing out. This is the kind of discipline my husband received from his dad. Nasty, cruel. For me it was a spanking followed by a hug and explaining why they didn’t want me doing what I had done. I assume you’d say the former could have been canceled out in favor of just the latter. I disagree.
My father was a firm believer in corporal punishment. I thought he was wrong when I was a child and he was hitting me. And I think he was wrong now as an adult looking back on him with the benefit of hindsight. But he was not a bad man. I understand you haven't anywhere claimed that a parent who hits their kids is a bad person, just that the act itself is immoral. How do I square the belief that my Dad was wrong with my belief that he was a good person and good father?
"Because it doesn’t really matter when we meet God, anyway."
That's the cold, hard truth many don't realize. It's also why spending your days slaving away for a corporate animal and missing your kids life is so stupid.
Yes, I get we have to make money to provide, but in today's world being a "workaholic" is simply wrong.
I was being beat with a belt once by my mother and felt that it was really unfair so i grabbed it. She got angry and tried to hit me harder and accidentaly (i assume) hit me with the belt buckle in the dick. I was pissing red for a month. My parents later felt guilty and bought me junk food whenever i wanted.
Needless to say this didn't create any healthy patterns in my life. I give up way too easily when things are difficult which might be related to that i don't know. Corporal punishment is wonderful though right?
I’m with you, but I think this is why it’s still surprisingly controversial: what the older generations got wrong, like spanking, was so relatively small compared to what newer parents get wrong (screens, lack of free play) that the kids raised the old way are still so clearly better off psychologically than many kids raised by nonspankers today. Even though it’s the social media and over parenting that’s ruining kids today (and the adderall), not the lack of spanking. But that’s confusing and hard for some to separate out, so they just think “kids these days, should’ve had a good beating”…
Anyway, thank you for this post, good stuff!
Gaty.substack.com
No shortage of ways to destroy one's children.
I still, in my rapidly-tarnishing golden years, have occasional nightmares of my father beating me. And he was well within the normal range of the times.
I slapped my kid's hand once. Just once, out of frustration. Still bothers me. I'm livng proof abuse need not be passed down. I still managed just fine to set limits; to say "no" when necessary. Happy to say it worked out beautifully.
Great points on tech and drugs as so much more important. Another variable contributing to the decline is diet and toxic foods. Ballooning obesity is the visible manifestation, but these things must be impacting the developing mind as well.
This is a very good point. Spanking is bad, but clearly children today are even more dysfunctional and weak than Millennials were. Astoundingly rude too.
I’ve literally never heard anyone who spanks their kids use a single reason you quoted. Spanking isn’t lashing out or violence and isn’t done to hurt/harm. That’s called abuse.
My kids are grown - 26-36 in ages now. We rarely spanked any of them but we did, judiciously, not in anger, when called for. When they were old enough, consequences were enough.
My parent used “psychology” for me - “we are so disappointed...” and that left a lot of crap for me to sort through later. Much better for me to have been spanked.
Trust me spanking is a bit more psychologically harmful than that 😂
Me and my wife only spank for rebellion. And we never do it out of anger. If we have to, we take a moment to collect ourselves. We start with explaining why they are getting spanked, and then spank, then tell them we love them and pray for them. After about 3 yr old my kids haven't really needed spanking. The goal is not to break their spirit but train out rebellion. It is not to instill fear (I have never heard this before) but rather should be done with love and the child should know this. But that is just me.
Also your explanation of "sparing the rod" was not all that convincing to me. The rod and staff were used to both comfort and protect. To guide and to punish. Comfort them in gentleness and coaching, but also protecting them from the enemy, which can often be themselves and their own rebellion. I will admit I am no Hebrew expert, but have looked into those when I became a parent.
Would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Thank you for making this post. As someone who was abused (much worse than spanking) as a child, I indeed grew up fearing any sort of risk in life, and you were right on the nose about the negative effects it had on my ability to communicate with people as well - this caused huge problems for me in my relationships (mostly with women, as the abuse came from my mother) and left me feeling misunderstood and unable to effectively express myself for most of my life.
I'm nearly 40 now, and while most of it is in the past (due to years of working on myself and being fortunate enough to find/afford good therapy), I grew up never wanting a kid of my own, because I feared that I might carry the same cycle on that my mother did with me. Everything else has stabilized in life - objectively good career, physical health, etc., but every now and then I still wonder about raising a kid.
I was spanked and I have to say, 25% of this article is complete gobbledygook based on my experience. May be true for most kids, especially daughters, but i never feared being spanked for a “mistake”, because i never was spanked for a “mistake”. Spanking would occur when the child did something egregiously wrong, that even they knew was wrong.
Now i do disagree with spanking, because I don’t think it works particularly well. Personally it didn’t deter me from anything. But calling it trauma or fear inducing is just cringe to me, as you don’t do it to a kid that can’t handle it mentally.
I read you nearly daily and appreciate much good advice. Thank you, Cerno. 🙏
But, on this one I disagree. I read Positive Discipline and questioned the use of the rod for years, leaning towards your same understanding: "The rod is a what a shepherd uses to guide his flock."
But, somehow I found that I missed this verse:
"Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you strike him with a rod, he will not die." (Prov 23:13)
Of course, discipline (correction) should not be done in anger, but in love and understanding.
"Fathers and mothers, I tell you plainly, if you never punish your children when they are in fault, you are doing them a grievous wrong. I warn you, this is the rock on which the saints of God, in every age, have only too frequently made shipwreck." - Ryle, J.C.. The Duties of Parents (p. 31). Kindle Edition. [Ryle's book from 1888 is the best book on parenting I've ever read and it's less than 50 pages.]
Just want to thank you for now enabling comments for free subscribers. I'd tried on earlier posts and got that mean pop-up that made me feel sad. (FYI I do think every Substacker has the right to control access and commenting as they choose.)
I second this. Substack should enable Brave Rewards so we can donate that way, passively with ad-supported money.
Geez no. Keep it clean.
I was spanked and spanked my first child. It made everything worse. Learned peaceful parenting with second child. The guilt I still feel for not learning sooner still eats at me.
Let's not forget the "Bomb in The Brain" series by Stefan Molyneux. One of many arguments made is that spanking leads to criminality.
I couldn't locate the "Bomb in the Brain" series series easily on his Rumble channel
https://rumble.com/c/freedomain
but found it here:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8ewqzg
I’m 100% with you, Mike, and neither of my children turned out to be spoiled or criminal, or anything else. They turned out great. The only time I can remember giving them a serious spanking was when they made it, as very small toddlers, to the road in front of the house. It scared me to death, and my own fear spurred the spanking. I did hope it would make an impression that would prevent future danger, but I think, to this day, I could have done something more effective without physically hitting my children. I agree--can’t for the life of me figure out why this is even controversial.
Best thing we can do for our kids is earn their trust, and how do you earn the trust of someone you’re hitting, for whatever reason?
Good discipline is entirely compatible with a no spanking policy.
Excellent, Mike. One of your best - and I've read you for a long time. My borderline father (evangelical Christian) routinely hit me but my siblings fared worse. He never apologized after his rages. My brothers look at it as some type of male initiation and love the guy. I've never forgotten and though we've had our adult conversations about the past, I still don't trust him, even now.
Beat a child = lose the child, especially men dominating little girls.
"The word rod indicates a thin stick or switch that can inflict a small amount of physical pain with no lasting physical injury. It should go without saying that a child should never be bruised, injured, or cut by a physical corrective measure. The Bible warns that parents should never abuse their power and authority over their children (Ephesians 6:4; Colossians 3:21). Discipline, physical or otherwise, should not be abusive, unfair, or administered in anger. Discipline should be done in love, with purpose, and under control."
https://www.gotquestions.org/spare-rod-spoil-child.html
Depends on the child, the situation, and whether in anger (lashing out) or not. A young child continually putting a plastic bag on his head will associate doing so with a hard smack - less risk of repeating the endeavor.
Am 100% against lashing out. This is the kind of discipline my husband received from his dad. Nasty, cruel. For me it was a spanking followed by a hug and explaining why they didn’t want me doing what I had done. I assume you’d say the former could have been canceled out in favor of just the latter. I disagree.
My father was a firm believer in corporal punishment. I thought he was wrong when I was a child and he was hitting me. And I think he was wrong now as an adult looking back on him with the benefit of hindsight. But he was not a bad man. I understand you haven't anywhere claimed that a parent who hits their kids is a bad person, just that the act itself is immoral. How do I square the belief that my Dad was wrong with my belief that he was a good person and good father?
"Because it doesn’t really matter when we meet God, anyway."
That's the cold, hard truth many don't realize. It's also why spending your days slaving away for a corporate animal and missing your kids life is so stupid.
Yes, I get we have to make money to provide, but in today's world being a "workaholic" is simply wrong.
Love the parenting posts.
I was being beat with a belt once by my mother and felt that it was really unfair so i grabbed it. She got angry and tried to hit me harder and accidentaly (i assume) hit me with the belt buckle in the dick. I was pissing red for a month. My parents later felt guilty and bought me junk food whenever i wanted.
Needless to say this didn't create any healthy patterns in my life. I give up way too easily when things are difficult which might be related to that i don't know. Corporal punishment is wonderful though right?